The Greater Bristol Bus Network is on its way. And it will provide a fast, efficient network of major commuter bus routes into the city centre from in and around Bristol.
902 Park and ride bus centre
But what about Bristol’s wider network of routes which serve local neighbourhoods? Most people would agree that these routes need a radical overhaul. Years of tinkering around the edges has led to a network that is patchy and inconsistent.
Many of the routes haven’t changed for decades, and others have been scrapped for commercial reasons, or for lack of funding, leaving passengers feeling last in line.
The experience of other cities in the UK and Europe shows us how buses in Bristol could be better organised. So now Bristol City Council is looking to work with private sector service providers to overhaul the existing network to make it serve the city better.
As a first step, the council is holding an ASK Bristol discussion to gain an understanding of residents experience with local bus routes, how far they have to walk to their nearest stop and how long they have to wait for a change of bus.
It’s only a ‘public conversation’ at this stage to gather some informal views before we sit down with local bus operators and map out a first draft of a full bus review for consultation.
Throughout 2010, there will be a number of further stages to this and ways to get involved, and we will be sharing more information about this on ASK Bristol.
Cllr Jon Rogers - Cabinet Member for Transport and Sustainability
Councillor Jon Rogers – Executive Member for Transport and Sustainability –
I’m a great believer in early engagement and keeping people informed about fundamental issues like the Bristol’s bus route review. We used this approach on the city centre layout debate on ASK Bristol and we’re asking people once again to join the debate on ASK Bristol about Bristol’s bus routes and network. This will help us decide what the review should cover and how we go about it. By getting involved at this very early stage, it means we can keep you informed as we proceed.
We’re using our new approach to involving citizens and groups with the bus route review which is about sharing early ideas and developing them together. This process will continue through 2010 and changes to bus routes and the network won’t begin until 2011 at the earliest. Use this forum to talk about:
• How should we carry out the Bristol bus route review
• What are the main citywide / strategic issues which should be considered in this review
We’ll be adding an interactive map soon which will enable you to place pointers on a map, comment on individual services and suggest new routes.
By getting involved in this debate or by signing-up for the ASK Bristol newsletter, we’ll keep you informed as the review progresses.
Young people on public transport
The Sustainable Development and Transport Commission asked young people for their views on public transport. Here is the video the commission watched:
Useful links
- Bus Route Map for Greater Bristol
- Find out more about the Greater Bristol Bus Network
- Find out about plans for bus rapid transit (BRT) in the Greater Bristol area
- Maps and routes of First bus services
Response from the council
On March 9th 2010 ‘Ask Bristol’ commenced a debate on behalf of the then Executive member for Transport and Sustainability (Cllr Jon Rogers) to discuss a proposed review of the bus network.
Responses were received up to October 2010, although the majority of the debate ran during March to May 2010.
The intention had been to inform a full review of the commercial and Council supported network during 2011.
During Summer 2010 it became clear that FIRST would not be in a position to resource such a comprehensive review and the commercial review was reduced to considering minor changes to improve the existing network (for example around the Hengrove area). There was also limited interest in a major review from the neighbouring authorities.
The change in government and emphasis on cuts in budgets has also had a significant impact on the ability to consider a detailed review of the network.
However, this initial debate has helped to inform the process of preparing new Contracts for the bus services supported by the Council (as considered by the more recent Ask Bristol conversation on “Supported Transport Services” which closed on May 11th 2011). These have included:
- Some assessment of the transport models to recognise where there may be significant numbers of car journeys and no direct competition from an existing bus route to assess whether introducing a bus service could be viable.
- Consideration of the potential patronage and viability of a new or revised bus route to serve the Crews Hole area of East Bristol.
- Consideration of splitting existing supported orbital services and adjusting their routes and frequencies to improve overall use, clarity and reliability.
- The procurement of services supported by the Council at the same time to make it possible to package the services, attract other companies into the market and to reduce the impact of the expected significant increase in costs.
The results of this further consultation and the procurement of supported services are covered in a report and decisions at cabinet on 9th June 2011.
Other comments associated with the development of SMART/through ticketing, major transport schemes, bus lanes and enforcement, parking controls and other measures have been noted as part of the ongoing development work in these areas.
It’s about time someone stood up to First – they must be laughing behind our backs at us.
Fishponds buses to the Centre stop near Whitefriars for a driver change. You can wait 5 minutes for the finishing driver to cash up and the new driver to appear, or walk the rest of the way to the Centre. A great innovation on the part of First to save their drivers some of the walk from the bus station.
Consultation? Lip service!!
This council is railroading over the opinions of the residents and shop keepers in Fishponds who are objecting to their ill-thought out GBBN dedicated route through our area. For us it will mean lost resident parking and lost business. We don’t want it.
GBBN/First Bus will no doubt get their way though, and the ‘consultation’ was an empty public exercise as they do not want to take on board our concerns. The revised plan, supposed to accomodate our issues, is not very much different to the original one, which will turn Fishponds shops into a ghost town.
None of these planners live here though so why would they give a hoot?
We are rallying to protest at our next Neighbourhood meeting.
Improve bus services and routes, yes, but not to the detriment of the communities they pass through.
I have today returned home to York after my first visit to Bristol for many years. I used to live there. What struck me on a walk from the Downs to the Centre was the paucity of buses. Where have they all gone? There used to be loads going up and down Whiteladies Road – or was it all my imagination? I was so surprised that I looked on the internet to find out what has happened – and found this site.
We also have First buses in York and they are generally fairly good, although there are moans from time-to-time in the local paper. Don’t let them foist the FTRs onto Bristol though. York, Leeds and I think Swansea have got them.
I live close to a main access road into the City Centre and it is rare to wait more than a few minutes for a bus. This means that people tend to use them rather than the car.
WAITING FOR THE BUS
With the coming of ‘real time’ information, passengers can know pretty well how long they’ve got before the bus comes. Anything over a couple of minutes, and they don’t have to stay at the bus stop itself – just stay within the time and distance range.
That opens up the possibility of a qualitative change in the ‘waiting experience’ (not one of the delights of bus travel). So why not, where there are clusters of nearby stops, as around Broadmead, Cabot Circus, the Centre, have waiting rooms with seating, lighting, and – of course – the ‘real time’ departure boards so passengers know when they’ll need to leave for the bus departure point and have a minimal wait there. There’s a security enefit too… the more people gather in one place instead of spreading around disparate bus stops, the less chance of trouble and the greater sense of security.
Though not essential, there may also be opportunities for retail, refreshment, etc to help cover the costs
The ‘real time’ boards at Temple Meads ticket office area show that it’s possible – though at present they lack the surrounding comforts for waiting passengers. Something similar within Cabot Circus or the Galleries would be a first step forward.
A) increase spending on cycling and cycle hire schemes by 100%
B) support cycle refurbishment schemes that allow reuse of cycles
B) suspend all road improvement schemes, with the exception of cycle and bus lanes
C) introduce charging for all car parking, on and off-street, using programmable pay stations that accept cash, debit/credit cards or a City charge card that can either be linked to them or topped-up at any shop or supermarket
D) designate residents-only parking areas that use the same pay stations, but only accept a residents’ (discounted) car parking card that only works in their immediate neighbourhood
E) introduce a congestion charge and use it to subsidise shoppers’ buses to take people to shopping areas
Toni,
Where’s the ‘carrot before the stick’ that BCC and the WoEP have been promsiing us for years?
Where’s the step change in transport improvements in your plans?
You seem to exist in a Utopia where First runs an efficient, reliable and affordable bus service and that we have a frequent and extensive network of urban railway services. Neither actually exists.
You also seem to be labouring under the impression that First won’t hike their fares up even more once we’re all forced onto their buses – there’s nothing to stop them and they are a monopoly transport provider.
Your idealistic plans would spell financial hardship for those least able to afford it and damage to Bristol’s businesses.
You conveniently forget that Bristol is the regional economic and cultural centre of a wide area and that many who work and play in the city have to use their cars to get here as a, Public transport is very poor in Bristol b, Public transport is near non-existent in the areas surrounding Bristol c, Bristol has less than 4000 park and ride places, all concentrated in the South and East of the city.
Without a dramatic improvement in the capacity, scope, affordability and reliability of Bristol’s public transport system your ideas would cause chaos, hardship and inconvenience for tens of thousands of people.
Fortunately, any local politicians who would try to implement such as policy would find themselves out of office very, very quickly.
Of course, you simply could not put on a frequent, reliable bus network onto a crowded, congested road system.
So, at least in that case, you can not have the carrot prior to the stick.
Interesting comment about ‘financial hardship’ – does this mean that motorists are poorer than cyclists or public transport users? I don’t think so.
Yes Charlie, you can have the carrot before the stick – by investing in more Park and Rides, increasing the frequency of the urban rail system by resignalling, building turnbacks and reopening disused stations and lines and by reallocating some roadspace from motorists to buses.
Then, if people still insist on using their cars you can bring in Toni’s punitive measures.
Most other cities have managed it, but not Bristol. And that’s the fault of a succession of local councils, one of which you were a part of, failing to obtain decent funding for Bristol, and failing to use the money they did get sensibly.
Believe it or not, not all motorists are minted. Many are not, but need a car because of the rubbish that masquerades as public transport in this city.
Is this consultation still running? Could someone from the Council advise what is happening with the review of bus routes, and when next the public can get involved?
Many thanks
Too late! you have made the mistake of believing First are a company to trust. All over the country people are finding the First are the wrong choice. They promise good service while delivering some of the poorest in the country. Their fares are higher than other companies and their equipment is more expensive to maintain.
Complaints are buried locally and their customers give up as it becomes impossible to improve the ever decreasing service. Councils are held to ransom has First take over dictating conditions and forcing cars off the road to increase revenue into their pockets. The ineffective services and excuses lead to yet more increases in fares. In the end you’re left with a monopoly and very poor services. Customers stop using them and start complaining to anyone who will listen to them. Not the way to run a business.
The damage their equipment causes to the infrastructure means more expense replacing cables, water and gas pipes. More resurfacing of roads and structural damage to properties will cripple your Councils budgets and lead to increases in your local taxes. First Group should be the last resort as I have seen and felt the effect of this poor excuse for a business.
Watch out for the high polluting bendy bouncing buses which are claimed to be the future transport. These monsters belong in airports as they are not fit for purpose in our streets causing untold damage as they thunder down the road. You been warned so choose wisely and don’t let First group bully you and get their way
Some of the vital parts of making bus transport acceptable to those who now use cars:
*Smart, multi modal ticketing (‘Oyster’ style)
*Good real time information (at stops, on phones, in shopping centres)
*A central transport hub (Plot 6, Temple Meads, being ideally placed and available) to make transfers easy, comfortable, safe and quick.
All of which would be very much simplified if we had an Integrated Transport Authority – but our neighbours have put a stop to that.
Also… given a high quality central transport interchange, it’s practicable to
a) terminate routes at the ‘hub’, instead of long routes from one part of the city to the furthest extreme, with consequent timekeeping problems.
b) consider turning single line routes into loop routes (like the outline of petals on a flower, radiating from the centre) so that (say) a Hartcliffe bound bus would come back from Whitchurch – and vice versa. That would give more options for people in the outer fringes, especially at off-peak times.
I previously thought the first bus service was ok then i experienced a lot of different bus services across the country and i felt embarrassed by ours, out rightly the most expense service I’ve come across including the London bus service, also the bus routes into the more country areas like north Somerset are either stupid slow like my old bus route the 178 where it would take an hour and half to get radstock from Bristol and cost over £5 for a single, I know the other more local bus companies are supposed to cover these areas but they run about twice a day and sometimes don’t even bother turning up, also more could be done with the train and bus travel joint tickets i cant remember the last time is was advertised, one final argument i have is for tourists and non local using the buses, a number of friends of mine get very confused with the bus service.
I not asking for dirt cheap round the clock super transport but a transport system which is up to standard to the rest of the uk.
The main issues that needs addressing, in no particular order, are:
• Introduce an ‘Oyster’-type ticketing scheme on all buses (and all bus companies) across the Avon area – don’t forget Bath in this review – 100s of people travel between the two cities daily. Electronic tickets to be useable on local train services as well.
• All tickets to be bought in advance of travel – no payments on the bus means safer and faster buses.
• Ticket machines at most major stops in Bristol & Bath, and at strategic stops on all main routes. Tickets to be available at the two bus stations – it’s ridiculous that you cannot buy a bus ticket at a bus station.
• Real-time electronic displays at ALL bus stops across Avon – if the bus is running late, TELL THE PASSENGERS – it means they know what’s going on and reduces frustrations – most anger among passengers is due to not being told what’s happening or what the problem is. The majority of passengers aren’t unreasonable, but they get very frustrated when the bus company fails to maintain a dialogue with them
• Over 65s’ free travel shouldn’t start until 10am.
• Better co-ordination of services within and between the two cities.
• Improve access at weekends and bank holidays – eg: 318 Keynsham to Bristol Parkway/Frenchay to run on a Sunday, 332/632 Bristol to Bath to run more frequently and until later in the day on Sundays and bank holidays.
• Enforce current bus lanes – ‘police’ these for drivers who ignore them or park in them – a bus lane that isn’t enforced is simply a waste of paint. This includes people with disabled stickers on their cars and taxi drivers, who somehow think that the Highway Code and traffic rules do not apply to them.
• Better training for bus drivers – both technical skills/driving ability and customer service skills
• Satellite navigation on all buses – prevent drivers who don’t know the way taking the wrong route (for those of you who don’t travel regularly, this is something that happens much more frequently than you’d think!)
• Better co-operation and co-ordination by the local authorities across ‘Avon’ – try to put the interests of the travelling public first, rather than narrow, individual council interests.
• All Park & Ride services to operate 06.00 to 24.00, 7 days a week.
• Better enforcement and heavier penalties for car drivers, delivery vehicles and lorries that think it’s acceptable to park in bus stops – this includes bus stops near schools. If you think it isn’t a problem, try the 332 journey from Bristol to Bath during a weekday, see if you can safely catch a bus at the designated bus stop outside Bitton School…
• Harsher penalties for bus companies (stand up First Bus…) who routinely and consistently fail to operate their services according to the timetable. While traffic congestion is problem in causing delays, it’s not always the problem…eg: a service that leaves Bristol Bus Station at 06.30 has no reason to be delayed…if it’s running late, then this is due to poor operational management by the bus company – yes, that you again First Bus…
That’s about it for now!
Anthony Harrison
Completely agree with you.
We have similar issues in Patchway, where the 75 (the only regular bus that goes through patchway apart from a random south glos service), is consistently late. Either the bus drivers avoid patchway all together by shooting down highwood lane from the mall instead of Coniston Road leaving passengers sometimes waiting over an hour for a honest driver to turn up. This is despite their route already being decreased at the expense of local OAP’s access because the council won’t enforce no parking down narrow streets of houses (they all have garages).
Despite me making dozens upon dozens of complaints since before the millenium, this has not changed and it’s rare if ever that First will acknowledge your complaint. So with the 75, your lucky if you can get in to the centre within an hour. If you need to get to temple meads by 9am, you’ll have to be on the bus stop at 7.15 latest, 15 mins of which is walking from the centre, but I recommend 7am!
Also, what happended to the express services that used to shoot up the M32 from the outskirts of Bristol? We need more of these in rush hour as Gloucester Road cannot cope as it is! Area’s like, Winterbourne, Yate, Thornbury etc are completely neglected in part due to South Glos council’s unwillingness to have a civil dialogue with Bristol. If areas such as Manchester and London can have respectable transport systems then what on earth is bristol’s excuse? In the above areas, you can travel from say Stockport to Manchester city centre by local train and bus for less than it would cost to get from Cribbs to Yate shopping centre.. And yet first operate one half of Manchester centre directly and have the other half under one of their sister companies Arriva which can mean up to 3 fares! First seem to have a monopoly everywhere, they even own Magic Bus! So I think it might be best for the government to take over, cos less face it with no compettition, the travel companies will continue to gouge us on buses and trains until they have a reason not to. Secondly, it might mean that we could pull the now disused locally based trainlines out of retirement and perhaps approach something that resembles an nationwide integrated service. I have heard rumours of a German company being consulted about the UK train system, maybe the councils could get some pointers from them on the buses too???
One last thing, traffic lights are not the universal bandaid for congestion… Gloucester Road, Easton, St George and Cribbs Causeway are complete nightmares and I can’t drive so god know’s how you drivers feel!
First, South Glos and Bristol, step up to the plate! With the profit margins First should have from their extortionate fares, we should be getting complimentary foot rubs or something. There is no excuse for complete neglect shown to the transport sytem over such an economic boom… Now it’s going to be under more stress than ever before as people lose cars etc in the crash, sooner rather than later please councilors!!!
Ps, apologies for mis-spelling but I really couldn’t bothered after such an exhausting rant!
Another way of getting a sense of which bus routes are currently well valued, which aren’t, and where new connections are needed, is to use crowdsourcing.
A map of the city could be posted online and visitors to the website could indicate common start points and end points that they feel should be served by public transport. Some of these will already be on existing lines, others may not be. By selecting a start point and an end point (eg Bedminster to Hotwells), the Council could see where people really feel they need services running to/from. It could be run online and portable Internet points could be taken into shopping centres, community centres, colleges etc. Once enough people had contributed, the Council could look to see which routes are desired, where connections don’t exist, work out where bottlenecks would be etc. Basically, similar to the current City Centre consultation but a little more sophisticated (perhaps use OpenStreetMap?)
If we can get as many people in the city to contribute as possible (not just those with very strong opinions!), a really worthwhile map of current and future bus use could be developed.
As an aside, I think there also needs to be more done to encourage through ticketing – PlusBus should be promoted far more, and tickets bought on board airport express services should be valid on the city’s other bus services. Will the airport express be part of the Oyster trial?
That’s all for now, thanks for reading!
Good idea!!
We’ve been thinking about an interactive map where interested parties can suggest routes for the next phase of the Bristol Bus Route Review. If anybody has any suggestion of sites or tools which they’ve seen elsewhere on the internet to enable us to do this cost-effectively – please let us know. The challenge with a bus route review is getting useful geographic data from users and the public about routes. Whilst this is easy with maps in a public exhibition, in order to involve more people we’re trying to use online tools to collect this information alongside offline consultation techniques which we’ll be using in future stages of the review.
Look forward to your suggestions.
What is this i hear about moving the war memorial to allow bendy buses to use the centre, how disrespectful to the fallen to move the memorial in order to increase the profits of a bus company despised by Bristol residents. I dont go for the story that the council want to make things better, may God preserve us from the City council making things better having seen their track record. Leave our War Memorial alone.
A Veteran
Genuine and welcome as Cllr Rogers’ ambitions for a ‘21st century bus service’ might be, there seems precious little chance of achieving it under the present legislative framework. Still, pushing Firstbus somewhere close to the end of the last century would be a start.
Let’s not forget how we got here. We actually had ‘affordable, reliable, frequent, clean, timetabled services’ in the 1950s. The rise of the car put these under increasing strain, reducing the number of passengers and pushing up journey times. In the face of falling revenues the (admittedly largely public) operators only made matters worse by concentrating on cost cutting, introducing one person operation which led to slower journeys and a further loss of passengers and revenue. So the spiral of decline continued.,
In the 1980s a number of progressive Labour local authorities sought to reverse this decline largely by heavily subsidising fares. They increased bus usage, but their policies were loathed by the Thatcher government. The result was the Transport Act 1985 which stripped them of their powers and handed over bus operations to virtually uncontrolled private operators.
The justification was that competition would drive standards up and fares down. But it doesn’t work like that in the peculiar world of transport economics where it’s easy to get rid of competitors. So the most predatory operators quickly became near-monopolies producing exactly the opposite of what had been promised; low standards and high prices
Had the privatised service actually had to compete with the car, local road transport services would look very different today, offering, as the car does, flexibility, near instant access, speed, ability to carry shopping.
If the private motor car is finally to meet its match, it won’t be with double-decker omnibuses running on fixed routes (however imaginatively they might be planned).
It will (amongst other things) be with an innovative and imaginative range of choices, from rented bicycles, hire cars, private taxis, route taxis, dial a ride, and routed buses with space for shopping and luggage that can finally make people seriously consider whether it’s worth owning a car. Private provision has spectacularly failed to deliver that.
It can only happen when public transport planning is put back into the public sector (as it is now in London) across the country.
But getting back to reality, I wonder if there is there anything that a local authority can do to drag First Group into the late 20th century. When I read at the beginning of the second decade of the 21st century that flat fares on some routes are going to be replaced with ‘distance you travel fares’ (exact details of which are almost certainly only going to be available on the bus itself) that will be collected laboriously and slowly by the driver I have my doubts.
It is a pity that one of the ways of consultation has been removed & that was the Bristol Transport Forum meetings. It meant that 6 times a year, Councillors & Council officers were made aware of public feeling towards public transport issues.
Generally I am satisfied with the existing bus network. One of the more recent positive changes was the rerouting of services 8 & 9 along Redland Road. For the first time in 35 years of living in Redland, a bus service is available 7 days a week. This change only coming after a 15 month gap following the withdrawal of service 99 in 2008.
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful comments of so many contributors.
To be clear, “It’s only a ‘public conversation’ at this stage to gather some informal views before we sit down with local bus operators and map out a first draft of a full bus review for consultation.”
These comments do start to reveal the differing views, alternative options and clear themes that need to inform any radical changes to the way we route our buses.
There is good news as the Rapid Transit network takes shape, widespread introduction of Smart Cards in Bristol is imminent (see today’s Evening Post http://bit.ly/a4UeC1 )and the Greater Bristol Bus Network is taking shape.
Bristol is slowly moving to the 21st century!
Is it feasible for the proposed smart ticketing system to be integrated with London’s Oyster card?
I see the park and ride site at frenchey allotments is still the Prefferd site. Is n’t it a better ideal for the traffic to be caught before the m32? The traffic on the a 4174 now goes back to blackhorse roundabout on a morning who would want to sit in a traffic jam for45 minutes to catch a bus? IF they got rid of the white elephant of the 2 plus lane that may help the traffic flow. What needs to happen is catch the traffic early. IF the new junction is built on the m4 at emersons green put a park and ride site just off that junction for the moterway and east Bristol Traffic Where Rolls Royce was at Filton put one thier and one at Wintrbourne between thier and bristol parkway with busses going via the station to help with the lack of parking at the station. But for all the planning in the world the park and rides will have to be priced correctly be frequent, fast, clean, warm in winter cool in summer if you want to get people out of thier cars.
I’m working out a business plan for a “not for profit company” community bus service. Can anyone tell me who pays for all the infrastructure costs of bus routes?
There seems to be a lot of clever people with good ideas; any volunteers?
I would like to see buses to connect areas such as Southmead and St George, as well as Keynsham and Knowle.
I would also like to see greater financial benefits for using bus routes regularly – such as more readily available week and month passes, and student tickets (rather than just day riders for students)
I really don’t know why you are all bothering with this futile exercise.
I googled ‘poor public transport in Bristol’ and about the 3rd or 4th result yielded the results of a survey conducted by Bristol City Council in 1999 and 2002 called ‘The Best and Worst Things about living in Bristol’. Guess what was right at the top of the worst things about living in Bristol in 1999 and 2002? Yep, public transport. And what’s happened in the intervening 11 years? Absolutely nothing, apart from a few fare rises and service cuts.
Exercises like this simply act as fig leaves for politicians who want to appear to be ‘doing something’. They’re forever ‘doing something’ – usually some kind of consultation or producing a glossy brochure or CGI extravaganza, but on the ground next to nothing happens.
Why bother with this? There is no legislation in place to force First to change their bus routes or services. If a route is not profitable enough First will cut it; the Council cannot force First to run unprofitable routes and cannot force First to change routes against their will.
In Bristol we have had decades of consultations, reports, visions of a Brave New World of transport provision, but nothing has actually improved – in fact it’s got worse.
Transport provision in Bristol has been characterised by under-investment, an abject poverty of imagination from transport planners and above it all, the rapacious monopoly that is First Group, pulling the strings like a malevolent puppet master.
Even Leeds, which has had similar transport delivery problems to Bristol, has finally received approval for its mass transit system. This will involve the return of trolley buses – quiet, smooth, non-polluting and iconic – all for less than Bristol’s mooted bog-standard-diesel-bus rapid transit network.
Instead of tinkering with routes, this is what Bristol needs to radically improve public transport provision:
1, Either get rid of First or introduce another major operator to generate genuine competition.
2, Large scale investment from national government to make up for the decades of nothing.
3, Transport planners with a bit of vision and a few original ideas – instead of the current crop who just do what First or the DfT tell them to.
4, Proper investment in our local rail services.
5, Cancel BRT and go back to the drawing board. BRT won’t work as it’s simply more diesel buses run by First. Motorists just won’t buy it.
6, Establishment of an ITA – with or without N Somerset. S Glos is the one we need to get on board.
7, Stop ‘consulting’ and start actually listening to people – there is a difference and nowhere is that difference more pronounced than in Bristol.
However, I really don’t hold out any hope for the above, because:
1, The Government will never get rid of First – they’re just too close to them, they even gave the First CEO a knighthood for services to transport – oh how we laughed in Bristol!
2, The Government just doesn’t care about investing in Bristol’s public transport – this has been amply demonstrated over the past 20 years.
3, The same old people are making the same bad decisions and are failing the travelling Bristol public.
4, Network Rail’s Great Western Route Utilisation Strategy is a truly hopeless document that pretty much torpedoes Bristol’s hopes of establishing the Greater Bristol Metro with 30 min cross-city services. Even the long-awaited reopening of the Portishead Line to passengers will probably not now happen. Bristol is a very, very poor relation when it comes to rail funding.
5, BRT won’t be cancelled, even though it’s an unpopular fudge of a scheme. Too many reputations and too much money has been spent. Also, First won’t allow it to be cancelled – as they will almost definitely get the contract to run BRT.
6, There just doesn’t seem to be the political will to form an ITA amongst our Dibleyesque local councils.
7, Bristol has to be seen to be ‘doing something’ even if that’s just another pointless round of consultation.
I will not apologise for being cynical. My cynicism is born out of years of witnessing abject failure, insane decisions (buses down the Railway Path anyone?) and hopeless timidity.
It’s clear what needs to be done and this consultation about bus route tinkering is not it.
Steve K has a jaundiced view of progress in last 11 years, “Absolutely nothing, apart from a few fare rises and service cuts.”
I share your frustration at pace of improvements, but there have been improvements, new services and indeed even some fare cuts. The Ulink smart card offers a 16% fare reduction on those fares. First have reduced the fares on 8/9 to £1.50 return and cost of day riders to £4 for example. What we all want to see is more bus use not less. That needs affodable, reliable, frequent, clean, timetabled services supported by integrated smart card ticketing and real time information. It needs bus lanes and bus lane enforcement.
All these building blocks are in place.
Looking at the routes is not just “tinkering” – it is another vital component to ensure a 21st century service. Some of our routes were designed in the 1930s!
Investment, competition, innovation, level playing field for rail investment, an integrated transport authroity are all part of our future.
And no, buses are NOT going down the Railway Path.
Cllr Rogers,
I do indeed have a jaundiced view of progress over the last 11 years, mainly because of the lack of any.
I know that it’s not your fault as you’ve only had your portfolio for a short period of the last 11 years, however, I absolutely stand by my comments that there has been no progress of note.
The fare cuts you mention should be set against the background of year on year fare rises over the rate of inflation for the past decade.
The new services (that you don’t specify) should be set against the background of many other service cuts.
There are some new buses, and the two Showcase routes are an improvement – but, if you use buses in our competitor cities in the Uk you will know that the majority of their routes are what we call ‘Showcase’ standard – ours are the exception, not the rule.
We also have put all of our eggs in the BRT basket. I’m sure that you’re aware that the Great Western Route Utilisation Strategy effectively torpedoes any chance of the ‘Greater Bristol Metro’ and your colleagues on the JTEC have also put the kibosh on improved governance and regulation through an ITA. So that’s improvements to our local rail services and real power over fares, routes and ticketing, not to mention some genuine competition for First, all out of the window for at least a decade.
JTEC also seem rather averse to agreeing Quality Contracts with First for any of the new Showcase routes or those developed through the GBBN – if they have the fares have not reduced as a result.
You and your colleagues on JTEC have also completely failed to explain to the public the powers that you have operating through the WoEP. I suspect that you actually don’t have any powers beyond that of persuasion and pleading with First. Otherwise I think that Bristolians would already have seen real fare reductions. Time and time again, whenever people are asked anything about buses in Bristol, the almost unanimous clarion call is THE FARES ARE FAR TOO EXPENSIVE – but nothing is done, therefore, the assumption is that the WoEP has no actual power to tackle this issue of paramount importance.
And you surely must understand the cynicism when you attempt to portray BRT as the magic bullet. It is after all, just more buses, and it is massively unfortunate that every item of BRT literature features BRT buses (Wright Streetcars) that only First use in the UK. The automatic assumption, despite ‘full and transparent tendering process’ protestations, is that First will be running them.
The target group that we all want to persuade onto public transport is the regular, single-occupancy car driving commuter. Tempting them out of their comfy cars by promises of yet more First-run buses is doomed to fail. Even if the marketing blurb claims that they’re ‘tram-like’ – they’re not, I’ve ridden on a tram and a Wright Streetcar – one feels like a tram and the other feels (and sounds) like a bus, because it is.
I do hope that the bus route review addresses some of the issues that dissuade so many car drivers from trying public transport, but I’m not that hopeful. The fares must come down and there must be alternatives to First buses.
I do hope that your assertion that buses will not be run down the Railway Path is true. The map displayed on the JLTP3 pages – http://tinyurl.com/y9725fk
is rather worrying and the motion passed by Council a year or so back is also rather ambivalent.
Having rambled on rather a bit, I must say that you are without doubt the portfolio holder with the most genuine determination to change things for the better regarding public transport in Bristol – but you really do have an uphill task. Good luck with it.
I agree with eveyrthing Citizen Sanchez says. I would add that the central bus station (Currently Marlborough Street) should not be run by one bus operator. As things stand other companies’ customers have to wait in the open in obscure places and with no online information, while passengers waiting for First Bus services are informed by uncontrolled and inflexible electronic systems which give them misleading messages about predicted arrival times of late running buses and which platform they will depart from.
If all these things are to rectified, the Council must involve more than one major bus operator so that there is some semblance of a need to win business through competition and not simply by stifling new competitiors at birth.
I particular agree with Kate Francis, that the deregulation of the 1980′s has been an utter failure and we know live with the consequences of a spiral of declining services, which become less profitable which leads to further decline. This has to stop now. Cllr Rogers needs to do everything within his powers to arrest the decline and of course this will need to be backed up with financial support – so in the current climate this is not going to be easy.
Key improvements should include:
More bus priorty ( inc bus lanes and better enforcement)
Revenues from penalty charge notices to subsidise fares
Off bus ticketing to speed up journey times
Affordable fares
Multi-exit vehicles to improve boarding times
The re-introduction of the city ‘clipper’ express services from suburbs to centre
Better interchange which is safe, fast and efficient and links to rail and future rapid transit
All low floor accessible vehicles
rapid transit – buses are never going to be fast enough for longer urban journeys.
I agree with Susan about the need for better bus services to Crew’s Hole. A steep half mile climb to the nearest bus stop is a big discouragement, especially when the services are unreliable and in the evening infrequent. We need both dedicated services to Crew’s Hole – how about one from central Bristol via Crew’s Hole to Kingswood local shops – and a better service on the 44/45 “Showcase” route.
What about services along the Feeder Road to Temple Meads from the East? First Group are not interested because no-one lives near the Feeder Road, but there are many places of employment along there and no buses to take the workers to and from.
I do not see why Sunday timetables are less frequent than the weekday ones – people want to go to the shops and other amenities just as much at weekends these days.
On the 44/45 “Showcase” route there are many “not in service” buses at certain times of day. They earn no revenue by not stopping to pick up and set down passengers. Even if they are returning to the depot and not the Centre, why not add them to the scheduled timetable?
Bristol’s bus service chaos would be simplified by 1. developing a central transport hub at Temple Meads and 2. introducing through ticketing. Most large towns and cities in this country and Europe operate transport hubs and central ticketing systems, which do away with the complicated series of city centre stop labelling as well as the time wasting purchase of tickets from the bus driver. I believe that this is the aspiration of the RDA and that plot 6 at Temple Meads is available for a hub right next to the trains! Lets do it!
Its a shame but whilst the RDA own the plot 6 site north of temple meads they have no intention of providing a bus interchange on the site.
Good to see a public body doing what the public wants again.
First to put this in context. Bristol’s bus service, like all others in England outside London, is deregulated. That means anyone can operate a service subject to some very basic requirements of the Traffic Commissioner. Deregulation was introduced in the mid 80s with the promise that it would encourage innovation, better services and lower fares. It hasn’t. Near monopolies like First Group make handsome profits from expensive, slow, unreliable and substandard services because, with virtually no competition, there is no need to innovate or strive for higher standards. They shouldn’t be blamed though. They are predatory profit-making organisations only doing what comes naturally because the government lets them.
So against that rather dismal background it’s extremely encouraging that Bristol City Council is now showing a real commitment to using what powers they have to make things better.
As for new routes, I’m no expert but I would assume they should be planned on the basis of surveys of journey patterns not only of current bus users (important though that is), but also of those using alternative methods – most importantly the car.
The underlying principle should be that buses can and should successfully compete with the car. In spite of the bus industry’s recent protestations that they do there seems little evidence to support this claim. Cars offer flexibility and convenience which bus operators have shown no inclination to match. My own experience, for example, is that if I want to go from Redfield to Cribbs Causeway I can do the journey in around one and a half hours on the bus (or rather two buses with one awkward change) or twenty minutes by car. I can get to Easton Retail Park in about five minutes by car or nearly an hour on two buses. A bit of a no brainer I think but it could be so different.
In the second decade of the 21st century it’s almost beyond belief that local buses perform less well than they did in the 1950s. Hopefully Bristol can take the lead in showing how much they can improve, to the benefit of all transport users and the environment.
Absolutely agree with this
I agree Kate, but I don’t think Bristol City Council is committed to improving our bus services. I attended a meeting about the scrapping of the 52 service last night, and although Jon Rogers was invited to attend and explain why he’d cut funding for this service, he failed to turn up . His representative, Alan Sibley, told us that the Council has no powers at all over Firstgroup because they are a private company who can do whatever they like! Firstgroup were also asked to attend the meeting, but they too failed to attend. Mr Sibley claimed that notices about cessation of service had gone out on the 52s, but when I asked all at the meeting if anyone had seen any, nobody had! He also claimed that consultation had taken place, but again, nobody there knew of anyone who had been consulted. This Council will run out of needle and thread with all the stitching up they do!
However, Citistar, an independent company, is willing to try a limited hourly service in the first instance, and if it is well supported then hopefully frequency will increase in the future. If fares are cheaper than Firstgroup’s extortionate charges they should soon give First a run for its money, so please support it everyone in the vicinity of that route.
My last point is bus lanes. The one in Malago Road is rarely used by bus drivers so get rid of it. Likewise the one from St Mary Redcliffe Church going towards Temple Meads. Traffic backs up on the roundabout causing massive congestion, and the bus lane is rarely used.
Anyway, regardless of what any of us suggest, they’ll have already made up their minds, and as they don’t have the guts to appear in person but hide behind online debates, we’re wasting our time.
Sandra says, “Jon Rogers was invited to attend and explain why he’d cut funding for this service, he failed to turn up”
I was similarly criticised in the Evening Post by Councillor Quartley who said: “It was extremely disappointing that the politician responsible for council-subsidised routes did not have the courtesy to turn up or even tender his apologies“.
Hmmm…
I most definitely DID give my apologies. I am sorry that they weren’t conveyed to the meeting.
I spoke with Don Smith, one of the lead petitioners, on the Thursday of the week before. He asked if I could attend a meeting already arranged with First Bus on Tuesday 16 March at 2pm at Cutler Road and a “mass meeting” for Wednesday 17 March at 7pm at Bedminister Down Ex-Servicemen’s Club in Cheddar Grove.
I explained that I was unable to attend the meetings but said I could potentially meet with him on Friday 12th March or Monday 15th March.
Subsequently I have been working with our excellent officers and Andy Fear at CitiStar to ensure that the new 52 service can start seamlessly on Tuesday 6th April.
Bristol City Council officers have been acting swiftly to support granting of a “short notice permission” for a new operator. Normally introducing a new service takes 12 weeks minimum, but with strong input from Bristol City Council, CitiStar, First Bus and the Traffic Commissioner, full permission, without conditions, was given on Friday 19th.
I agree with Sandra that the priority is looking at ways to get the new 52 service established, well used and profitable.
Well it’s easy to hide behind “apologies” when you don’t want to face the music!
Cllr Rogers, you claim that you’ve been working to ensure that the new 52 service can start seamlessly on 6th April. It’s a shame you didn’t do more to consult the people who use this service and inform them of your intention, but both First Group and yourself seem to have kept quiet so we haven’t had time to provide proof that this service is well used. Yes, there are quiet times when few passengers are travelling, but I’ve caught the 75 or 76 and sometimes found those services quite empty.
I’d love to be able to give this service my full support but at present the proposed timetable doesn’t fit in with my hours of work so not sure what I’ll do yet, but I’m still fit and able to walk so will manage. However, lots of people in this area, although not disabled, are not so lucky, and will really struggle. You don’t care, do you?
Your double standards of wanting people to use public transport but cutting services at the same time are no different to most other politicians out there. “Don’t do as I do, do as I say.”
I am always happy to “face the music”. That evening was my daughter’s birthday and we went out for a meal together.
There was consultation in March-May 2009 about the council’s intention to cut the subsidy in Sept 2009.
This year, First Bus decided to cut the service without consultation. Our council team have been working hard to help arrange a replacement. If it is well used it will thrive and CitiStar have indicated that they would hope to expand the service.
To say “You don’t care, do you?” is grossly unfair. If I could wave a magic wand and restore the service then I would, but the reality is that the council tax payer cannot subsidise every service. These aren’t “double standards” they are facts of life.
I am a regular bus user. I also walk, cycle, drive and catch the train. I want to see public transport improve and am working with some great people to help make it happen.
I’d like to see all bus routes operating 24hr where practical, and kept clear of parked vehicles. Buses should get priority wherever possible.
Prices need to be reduced to make it a financially better option than driving.
I’d also like to see more routes going between neighbouring areas, rather than into the centre (radial.)
As for consultation, could it not be a questionnaire with the regular council newsletter we all get?
I ride on the 44 & 45 bus route along the showcase bus route from Lawrence Hill to St George but it is very frustrating when cars are parked in the bus lane on church road which stops the progress of the bus from 4.30 onwards. Can more be done to make sure that the bus lane is clear or it will be a waste of money in creating this shocase bus route?
Agree – bus lanes should become red zones to ensure nothing is allowed to park in them
We definitely need cheaper bus fares. A single trip from Henbury into the centre costs us £2.85 each. Returns are not much cheaper, so for 2 of us, it is much better to take the car, thereby adding to CO2 emissions and congestion.
We have just visited Rome, where bus fares are 1 Euro for 75 minutes on the buses and one Metro trip! Barcelona has similar cheap prices. If they can do it why can’t Bristol?
European countries can do it because they pay taxes to heavily subsidise public transport. That’s not something we’re willing to do in the UK.
A 10 mile round trip by car costs about £2 in running costs, and about £5 a day in insurance, depreciation etc. While buses certainly aren’t all cheap in Bristol, there is obviously a perception that cars cost less to run than they actually do.
Are we not willing to pay taxes to subsidise transport in the UK? Really?
Actually, we’re paying a lot of taxes to subsidise the profits of public transport providers like First. We’re doing this when we subsidise ‘unprofitable’ routes and we’re doing it again through the Bus Service Operators Grant which reimburses the likes of First with virtually all the tax that they pay on fuel.
If our taxes were used to actually subsidise the fares and transport provision, rather than the profits of private companies, then we would be in a far better position than we are now.
It’s abundantly clear that the current system just isn’t working and needs a complete overhaul.
The levels of transport subsidy are shown on this EU report – page 20.
Excluding road building, transport spending in the UK is lower than the US, France, Germany and Italy as a % of GDP.
This isn’t solely spending on buses, but the UK does have a lower share of spending on ‘green’ transport than these countries according to the report.
Comment received by email
I understand that a consultation process is about to start regarding the re-routing of Bristol Buses. I would like to convey how disappointed and angry I am that the No 5 Bus has been taken off on Sundays and Bank Holidays.
For me this means the difference in being a prisioner in my own home and being able to go out to the shops or to visit family. Bank Holidays, in particular, can be a very lonely time and not being able to get into Bristol City Centre by catching my regular bus at Frenchay Road has been devastating for me.
The only way I would be able to catch a bus is a significant walk up hill to catch a No 48 bus and at 82 years of age, I feel that you are discriminating particularly against the elderly who have no access to any other means of transport.
It would appear that with the new consultation about to begin, the withdrawal of the No 5 bus is going to be accepted as being ok, whereas it has a major impact on many people.
The aim of society is to keep senior citizens in their own homes and for care in the community – the withdrawal of the No 5 Bus flies in the face of this, as it renders me unable to go out during these periods.
Sent on behalf of my 82 year old mother in Downend, Bristol.
They don’t care about people, only profit.
I live near Crews Hole, St George. It takes me approximately 1 hour and 5 minutes to walk to my former place of work near Millennium Square. To go by public transport at a time to arrive for an 8 a.m start would mean a 10 minute steep uphill walk to my nearest bus stop and then a combination of waiting for the bus and then sitting in traffic would lead to a total travel time of up to 1 hour and 15 minutes plus having to pay for the privilege and absorbing other travellers’ latest cold and flu bugs. This was after the showcase bus route to St George was introduced.
If I want to go to Temple Meads railway station it is quicker to walk 45 minutes or cycle for 25 minutes because there is no direct bus service to Bristol’s main railway station from St George. Why don’t we have a joined up transport system linking buses and trains? There is both a First railway service and bus service so it would seem sensible.
At a minimun surely a frequent circular service linking the Hippodrome area, bus station, railway station and Cabot Circus would seem sensible, including picking up peolple who are delivered by bus to Old Market. In many cities, including that out of the way corner, Perth, Australia, this type of central city circular service is free to users.
Until the Bristol Ferry service changed its timetable so I was unable to arrive for 8am at Millenium Square I often made use of it to save the last 30 minutes walk and enjoyed the Bristol Docks in the early morning watching cormorants dive and and swans sail by. It seems to be a policy for the railway station to suppress all information about this excellent service that would take railway commuters directly to many harbourside locations at a very competitive price without clogging up roads or pavements. Large clear signs should be set up Temple Meads railway station about the ferry service and where to find the nearby pickup point.
The ideal bus service for me would be to have a small shuttle bus running along Crews Hole to the Church Rd. St George shopping area or along Feeder Rd to Avon St with a stop near the new pedestrian bridge to access Bristol Temple Meads railway station. With the buildng developments along Crews Hole totalling more than 500 householders, without taking into account other nearby resident in Nibletts Hill, Troopers Hill Rd and so on, it does seem rather a large gap in service provision.
None of these ideas seem to feature in any transport policy for Bristol that I have read so far. It seems common sense – what is preventing it happening?
My main concern is that we need to have cross ticketing across bus companies. I drive to work when I could do the journey by bus but as I can’t carry anything very far I do need to do the majority of it in a vehicle and not by walking chunks of it. So my journey most days would involve a U5 to the Horfield Leisure Centre (well pretty close), then after a visit to the Centre, catch the 75 to Filton to work. Then at the end of the day catch the 517/518 home. At the moment the only way to do that by bus is to catch 3 different singles because they are not all run by one bus company so a Day ticket couldn’t be used. 3 singles is an expensive way to buy bus tickets every day.
A city like ours really needs a travel card system that allows travel on all buses / trams / light rail with one ticket. We have a daft system where if you come from another town by train you can get Plusbus ticket that you can use on First, Wessex Connect etc. but you can’t buy a cross ticket within Bristol – mad!!
Some cities, Frieburg in Germany for example, have a range of tickets e.g. you can buy a set of tickets that you can carry around with you and then when you’re ready to catch the bus you validate your ticket (just as the passes on First buses) and you can then go on any bus within the next hour. There are a whole range of other ticket options and lots of places have one day, week, month or annual cards that are valid on any bus in that town or zone.
Access to purchase “blank” cards in bulk would be good then in our increasingly cash free society you could just carry a few day tickets in your wallet and just validate them when you want to use them, or give one to a friend etc. But you need to sell them in the corner shop – not insist that wherever in “greater Bristol” you live you have to travel to the Bristol Bus station to buy tickets or get timetables. Real time and next bus and online timetable info is all well and good but you can’t beat having a paper timetable in your pocket – and ones that don’t change every 6 weeks.
Again these should be available in libraries, newsagents etc. You can get a few timetables from your local library but you have to ask for them – they’re not readily available and if your nearest bus service doesn’t serve your nearest library – they don’t stock it.
Timetabling buses that travel to similar parts of the city at the same time is also infuriating. The 20 and 54 for example both go to within 5 minutes walk of my front door but the evening service is only half hourly. Not bad and usually to time BUT they both leave town at the same time. So if you miss one you miss both and have to wait half an hour in the cold / rain etc. The 1 also covers a chunk of the same route in the city as the 54 and guess what, that also leaves town centre in the evenings at virtually the same time. They may well leave their respective starting points at different times but in the centre where they are picking up quite a lot of short journey fares they are all running at the same time. During the day the Council may not have any control over this, but the evening bus services are generally funded by the Council and therefore looking at issues such as these should be possible
I also think the idea of several bus hubs interesting – again changing buses at hubs where there are very frequent buses and cross ticketing makes them the norm rather than one more nail in the travel coffin.
One place that really needs better bus services is the BRI Hospital. Fortunately for me 2 buses from near me go to the BRI but I’m not sure any others do. For visitors to the hospital walking up from the city centre can be quite a steep climb if they’re not young and fit themselves and of course many outpatients might be more keen to travel by bus for minor appointments if the bus actually went to the hospital. The loop bus idea suggested by another commentator could incorporate stopping at the hospital – indeed maybe even stopping at a few of the BRI sites as the ones up St Michael’s Hill require a steep climb.
Consistency is important. The consultation suggests that bus routes haven’t changed for long periods but in our neck of the woods the routes have been tinkered with over and over again for the last 4 or so years. There was a 20, 21 and 22 service. Then it went down to a 20 and 21 service. Then the services were extended to Southmead and filton. Then the filton bit was cut off. Then the 21 was done away with altogether – well for about two weeks until it snowed and the 20 couldn’t managed the steep roads so they had to revert to the 21 bus route. If the bus routes weren’t forever changing and the timetables too – I think the 54 has changed every 6 weeks for the last 12 months – certainly so many changes you can no longer carry any times in your head that would also give people greater confidence in the buses. People I talk to locally confuse frequency with punctuality. Having had a 15 minute service cut to 30 minutes, they now can no longer just wander to the bus stop and a bus will come fairly soon – most of us might think a 10 min wait ok, for example. But the bus (20) is actually pretty punctual but if they don’t know the timetable, they’re not going to go for it because it could mean anything up to a 30 minute stand at a bus stop with no shelter, no seat.
Best practice is out there in uk and European cities that have been running successful integrated public transport systems for years but it seems to me that a key ingredient is keeping the market in check and making sure that they are run for the benefit of the traveller not the shareholder – the clue is in the name – public transport!
Ist punctuality is very poor.
We don’t need a route review and we don’t need new buses. What we do need are services which keep to the timetable.
Then and only then the public will start to use the services once again.
Philip is right: we need a reliable and affordable bus service. That is the only way to get people out of their cars.
There is little point spending time (which requires our council tax funded resources) thinking about new bus routes etc. when the existing ones are so under-used because from a user perspective, they are so inefficient.
Could an online map system be set up where different routes can be suggested by members of the public (perhaps, as you choose a route the website could indicate in colours the areas that would be served by that service). Or hold a workshop to do this?
Ideally, by going through this process, we’d develop a single layered map that demonstrates that all of the city has a connection to key areas.
Alternatively, can planners and the bus company be asked to come up with say three different proposals for how the network could be different – indicating pros and cons of each – that could then be consulted on? I’m aware there will be a lot of constraints to deciding what is actually feasible and the public won’t know what all these are!
Dr Rodgers,
from reading the plethora of responses, it becomes abundantly clear that the majority of respondants firmly believe that First are not providing a bus service that gives value for money, and that reducing fares should be used as a means of persuading people to switch from car to bus travel in Bristol! This should be your priority before reviewing bus routes.
I think one task for the Council is to be clear about its powers. A bus review cannot “set fares” – the Council can only try to influence bus companies, who set their fares commercially. If only twelve people use a bus, and seven of them are pensioners, then the service cannot be called commerically viable, however important it is to those twelve people.
Fares are directly linked to the cost of providing a bus service. If the bus journey were quicker, for example by having a good network of bus priorities, then costs of running the service would fall and the company could reduce fares in order to improve passenger numbers.
Because historically the city was redesigned with cheap car travel in mind, buses lost passengers so they were forced to put up prices in order to stay in business. The more that fares rose, the fewer passengers and the lower the frequency – a vicious circle. If the bus took less time than the car and there was less free parking at the workplace, then the bus would become more attractive, which would improve competition, service frequency and tend to reduce fares. This is how the Council can influence things, but it needs to be clearly spelt out that the Council CANNOT dictate fares or frequencies. The best that can be hoped for is for everyone to work together to decide how to make these improvements, get bus companies to sign up to real improvements, and listen carefully to what people want.
i think that we should stick to the main principle that everyone should be able to access all surrounding areas easily.all major areas easily.good location of bus stops plus better deals for people who need to use buses for work but cant afford to.i agree that the current network routes are rather out of date.my son had to buy a car because there is no route that runs from stockwood to avonmouth(a huge amount of people work in avonmouth) and 2 buses plus a long walk takes too long and costs too much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Buses should be cheaper. £1 per journey – £2.50 a day. Currently it costs the same as running a car.
Week/month long tickets should give passengers REAL savings – not just 70p over 10 journeys.
More frequency – How about some additional speedy buses that stop at key points in the route?
Can passengers be asked to keep their music down? I’ve had enough of passive inhalation of ipods and MP3s.
Buses in Bristol are far too expensive. Last week I caught a bus from Bedminster Parade to the centre. Cost : £1.85 single.
The journey took 6 mins. thats a cost of 30pence per minute, There are bus stops at Redcliffe Hill and Jurys hotel in Princes Street, a total of TWO stops. Thats a cost of 90pence per stop. Disgusting cost. That nearly £8 for four people.This is why lots of people would rather use a car.
Comment submitted by email.
Living in one part of the city and having to travel to a completely different part is a nightmare in Bristol – can we not take up the simple hub and spoke design that most places utilise (see Newcastle for instance), where there are main bus routes from the centre to the outskirts and back, and several circular routes that join the spokes? Maybe an inner, a central and an outer? Then I could hop on a bus and take a main route, change to a different bus to the next main route?
Can I also suggest strongly that bus routes that travel from one extreme to the other (e.g. from Cribbs Causeway to Hartliffe) are just plain stupid. Any delay in one place causes immense delays right across the city, convoys of 3 or more buses of the same number are not uncommon, and I have had to wait over an hour for buses from Hartcliffe because of a delay on the Gloucester Rd before now, on what is supposed to be a 10 minute service.
Agree that longer journeys should be broken where possible – as long as connection times are short and buses are regular enough that shouldn’t cause too many problems.
Hub and spoke model also a good one, avoiding the need for people south of the river to travel in to the centre if they need to head north.
Would also be good to have bus numbers rationalised – plus perhaps every bus that goes through Temple Meads should have a letter ‘T’ to help visitors?
I live South of the city but work in the North. Currently the 75 meets my requirements as there is no need to change in the centre. It is important that this is maintained as changing buses would be a real hassle. Maybe we should look at other routes to see if two buses journeys could be combined into one.
Dear Dr Rogers,
If the council purchase the land between Goodneston Road and the Railway Path near to Morrisons in Fishponds you can then create a curve road at the end joining with Filwood Road; expand the bridge crossing the railway path and have a double exit to the roundabout and directly in to Morrisons.
With your one way plans and no-right turn in to Morrisons, you can have a one way system leading in to Lodge Causeway from Fishponds Road, left along Goodneston Road and ease congestion in the area.
All traffic leaving the Morrisons will use the newly planned one way system. The answer lies with the waste land along Goodneston Road, an ideal overflow car park with development above. Play with this area… it’s an eye sore with the potential to solve some of your problems.
One of the main problems (cost aside) with Bristol’s buses is the paltry number that go anywhere other than the city centre, so you usually have to change buses. And that means standing around in the cold/rain/dark twice for one journey.
When I lived in Aberdeen many aeons ago, I can only remember a single bus that terminated in the city centre (the student bus from campus to halls). All the rest were through routes. There was a splendiferously useful one (the 6) that did a figure of 8 route round the city, hitting the centre twice on its route. Bristol needs some routes like this – figure of 8 or circular – so that there are portions of journey that can get you from, say, Fishponds to Clifton without going near the Centre.
I have been led to believe that First Bus has curtailed some cross-centre routes (e.g. the 43) because of the regulations on how many hours a driver can drive before he has to be relieved. Basically if the driver can’t get all the way from A to B and back again within that alloted time, it causes First some logistical headaches, and quite possibly costs them money. No profit = chop a chunk off the bus route.
A few first thoughts:
* Bus use in Bristol needs incentivising so that more people actually want to travel. If we can get a good review of bus routes complete and people save what they routes they want they will be more inclined to use them.
* Could consultation for new routes include public workshops where different ideas can be suggested and investigated for feasibility?
* There is currently no bus service serving large parts of Bedminster/Southville and Temple Meads station (except airport coach). All large centres of population need connections to the rail station and to the bus station, to encourage joined up public transport journeys
* Introduce a free or cheap & very high freequency city centre service to allow people to easily get to their bus stops (eg for commuters trying to get home; people trying to get to the bus station or Temple Meads). Cardiff has something similar now
* Agree with other remarks on here about interchanges
* Council should reconsider buying Plot 6 at Temple Meads and using it as a proper interchange
* Cut some of the length of the routes currently running to increase reliability
* Make use of all the bus stops at Cabot Circus (several currently have no services running to them) – again, currently no direct service (bar the 52) run from Bedminster to cabot Circus
* Consider bringing in timed tickets, rather than having to pay lots of single fares
* We need a single website that allows people to plan their journeys, find out which bus to catch where and how long to allow for a change, link up with nextbusbristol.co.uk
* Can showcase routes run services later into the evening, and more regularly on Sundays?
That’s all for now!
Circular bus routes have been mentioned several times as a possible solution.
There actually are circular bus routes in Bristol, services 500, 517, 518, 581, 584, 585, 586 and 587. But there are several problems with these services:
- they’re funded by the Council who don’t have much money, so they only run hourly and usually stop about 6pm;
- they try to serve every possible destination so end up taking ages to get anywhere;
- the routes are complicated and confusing – it’s very difficult to know where a circular route is going, or what destination should be on the front of the bus. For example I pity some poor person getting on service 586 from the Centre to Hotwells – it takes over an hour because it’s via Easton, Sea Mills and Clifton!
Whatever routes are chosen, through ticketing and high quality safe interchanges are essential.
In answer to PJ, I do travel through the City Centre. I used to regularly travel between Clifton and St. George. There was a direct bus from Clifton to Kingswood but I had to change for St. George. This meant extra cost and some rather intimidating waits at various bus-stops. The bus station at Lawrence Hill was the most frightening of all! If you tried to change in the City Centre, the St. George buses were often full meaning a long wait. By the time you reached the Fountain it was dark and scary but you could at least get a place on the bus.
My priority routes would be to ensure access to Southmead Hospital once services move across from Frenchay. As far as I can see most people East of the M32 currently have to change at the BRI to get there!
I also fully support smart card ticketing (oyster) and high quality interchanges.
Thanks for answering my question. I think there is probably a need for some through services, but also orbital routes avoiding the centre or in a figure of eight.
What do people think of this for a middle orbital route?:
Ashton Gate to Parson Street via winterstoke road, on to
Broadwalk via St johns Lane, Redcatch road, on to
Brislington via talbot hill, wick road, on to
Church Road Redfield, via Netham road, on to
Eastville Park via white hall road, gordon road, on to
Southmead hospital via muller road/gloucester road
The Downs via kellaway avenue, coldharbour road
Ashton Gate via Clifton down/portway.
I’m sure it needs tweeking to go to better destinations but I though it reasonably direct and looking at the bus map would allow reasonable interchange if and this is a big if, stops would be provided near or on the main radial routes into the city. At these point most services from zone two have converged onto the main showcase routes.
I live in the 52 bus area and I believe this service has been deliberately run into the ground for several years. About 4 or 5 years ago it was nothing to stand at the bus stop in Union Street, Broadmead for at least an hour, but when a bus eventually turned up the driver would deny all knowledge of any problems and always claimed to be “on time”. Since then the route has been changed, and the timetable, and because of its unreliability,some people have drifted away to catch a 75 or 76 if they live nearer to Bishopsworth. At present Highridge, Bedminster Down and Bishopsworth has an ageing population, and as this government has given all over 60′s free travel without thinking of the consequences, and probably no extra funding to councils to support this, Firstgroup won’t run this route at a loss. That means no bus to South Bristol Crematorium, and a long walk with heavy shopping for all of us. No good having a free bus pass if you don’t have a bus, and the likes of us who do have to pay to get to work have to walk farther. We desperately need to keep a service along Bridgwater Road, Kings Head Lane and Highridge Green to serve that area. It is a long walk from Bishopsworth.
My son has used public transport in many cities in the UK and grumbles every time he comes home how expensive and poor Bristol’s bus service is. Time to end Firstgroup’s monopoly.
Sandra
You’ll be pleased to hear that new operator – Citistar Ltd – has applied to register a new bus service to replace the 52 Highridge to Broadmead from 6 April.
The service will be run hourly on Monday to Friday, operating from 0740 from Highridge until 1705 from Broadmead. It will provide 9 journeys a day from Highridge and 8 journeys from Broadmead. From 4 May the 0740 will start from Stanton Wick via Chew Magna at 0712 and the 1705 will be extended to Stanton Wick via Chew Magna arriving 1758. From 4 May three other journeys will also be extended to Withywood.
It will largely follow the route of the existing service 52 between Highridge and the city centre via the Bridgwater Road and Bedminster.
Read the press release for more information about the new service
Better than nothing at all I suppose, but if we just miss the bus in Broadmead it’s a choice of a long wait or a long walk home for a lot of people. The 52 route should continue on from Highridge to go to Imperial Park, and then extend to the new hospital and lesiure centre at Whitchurch Lane. Give us a service that actually goes somewhere decent other than the city centre. Please!
I think from here the points are clear,
1) cost of service
2) monopoly from First Bus
3) lack of ideas on rapid transport service
4) No clear coordination of routes or services by the council, who decides the routes, the bus companies or the council?
5) A careful look at other cities and their systems and seeing if we can copy a good working service.
I have lived in Bristol all my life appart from my army service and I love the city but I am ashamed by a few things, I am trying to have my say ad get them changed and without politics BUT Bristols lack of a clear policy due to the mix of political parties is not helpfull when it comes to trying to get things done, I have no idea on this but wouldhope that by now all the parties shoul see te damage they are causing to our city, we are the capital of theSouth West, I found that we are also the 20th most investid in city in Europe and then the city with the second slowest trafic in the country with us being only second to London, things need to change or all the investment that has been put into our city will be wasted.
Chis
I agree with Jim regarding we can’t limit this to just buses. We need to expand local rail services, get trams back on the agenda and insist that First Bus actual start delivering a value for money service as well as widening bus service
To get people on to the busses they have got to be cheaper and go to the points people want to go to. Circular routes ie an outer middle and inner so you do not have to travel into the city to go back out again! show case bus routes are great if they are inforced just look at the a420 in redfield on a morning Window cleaners delivery vans and people useing cash points and newsagents parking in the bus lane i belive they should be red routes as in london no stopping what so ever. we need more busses in east bristol to go past temple meads We missed the best solution in a tram system bendy busses won’t work they are in the end just a bus and if the price is to high they wont be used. spend the money on the portishead, severn beach railway lines that would help more.
I think there are many aspects to look at:-
New types of transport
Bus lanes
Bus fares
Bus routes
Price discrimination
No of Bus stops
Frequency of Buses
Size of Buses
Methods of payment
30 years ago I would never have considered catching a bus due to the fact getting into the centre and parking nearby was easy. As it has become less so, public transport becomes a more attractive proposition. I don’t think £4 day rider is unreasonable but can someone explain why I can have a two stop hop for 80p but I can’t have a four stop for £1.60.
Since the post-war reconstruction of central Bristol it has been considered necessary for buses to pass through the original central crossroads (High St to Wine St) via a dual-carriageway.
If these buses could be re-routed, it would open up the possibility of removing the dual-carriageway and re-instating the pre-war crossroads.
This would improve this area considerably and would open up some exciting possibilites for the proposed Mary-le-Port development, including the possibility of rebuilding one of Bristol’s most-loved wartime losses – the Old Dutch House.
Ever since I moved to Bristol twenty seven years ago there has been talk about a rapid transit system but it seems as far off as ever. The buses here are very poor value compared with many other cities. I now qualify for a free pass but if I didn’t have it I wouldn’t use the buses at all. I live on the no.20/21 route which has always been very poor. It’s no use lobbying First because they ignore us. What is the use of consultation if nothing happens?
yet more money being spent on a private company who, seem to have scant regard for their customers, overpriced dirty buses that seem to run only on routes with high people traffic. why can not this very rich company pay for the road improvements it wants? why are we penalising the motorist?
there is no competition , which i believe is actually illegal, if there was buses would be cheaper and the people of bristol would not be forced to pay exorbidant fares and higher council rates that get swallowed up by private companies
As a bus user
Over priced, poor routes, and long waits the only exception Bath rd park and ride
As a car user
Long hold ups while passengers get on (Paying fares) causing other busses to block roads waiting to get to bus stops
Hence more traffic holdups
Answer
Cheaper fares and put condutors back on during peak times
The busses move of stops quicker equals less traffic hold ups equals better bus service therefor more people use busses equals less traffic etc
A bus only makes money when moving
I can only echo the despair of the previous contributors. How many times are we going over this old chestnut. Get on with making a decision, we do not need yet more consultation, procrastination and indecision. What is this a job creation scheme for local government. How many surveys and consultations has this topic racked up and at what cost to the public purse.
I do not use the BUS service because it does not go where I want to go without changing bus and I really do not want to spend a whole day doing one trip life is too short. If I want to go to the centre of town for example the cost of the journey for my family will be more than the petrol and parking cost. If I was over 60 and the bus was free then clearly I would travel every where by bus which is why the bus services seems to be used mainly by pensioners.
I don’t use the buses in Bristol because the price is prohibitive and they don’t go anywhere except the centre.
1) Get the bus companies to lower the prices by setting up a public transport executive like Greater Manchester has.
2) Get routes that skirt around the edges of the city centre instead of just going to it or through it.
Having visited Manchester and seen the prices of the bus service up there, it is no wonder the we have huge traffic problems in Bristol. A week’s season costs about the same in Manchester as a day rider in Bristol.
FirstWeek Manchester £15.50. Pretty much about the same as £4 I suppose.
I would also support bus routes that go to other parts of the city. From Brislington there is no service to any of the employment areas in the North Fringe e.g. Aztec West, Filton (Rolls Royce), UWE/MOD or Emersons green.
Here we go again, why do we need to look at the bus routes again when we should have the long awaited rapid transport system, I have no idea how much money was wasted on this project in the past but it needs to be up and running and not rely on the over priced First bus services, let’s get Bristol linked by a rapid transport system to 3 or 4 hubs then continue on by bus services to the main points butwithout the strangle hold of first bus.
I use the no1 bus service on an in frequent basis as its too expensive to travel into town at £2.45 single.
There needs to be a reintroduction of the old workmans tickets before nine at a flat rate of a £1.00 per return journey if you want to encourage more people to use buses.
It is no good adding more pain to car drivers by looking a taxing them to drive into the city centre unless there is a cheaper alternative, it amy be worht the buses coming back under the councils control etc.
Also to speed up some journeys remove bus stops an example of this is Sandy Park Rd Brislington there are 4 bus stops pick up points within 400yds approx!
Most of the heavy traffic on the A4 Bath Rd comes in from Bath, Keynsham and South Glos on the ring road, so there looks like a need for a rapid transit route into Bristol on thsi route int he next few years.
As far as I am concerned there is no point fiddling with the routes until the prices are drastically reduced. Bus travel in Bristol is very poor value for money. Travel as a family and it is even worse. Most times it is far cheaper to drive even taking into account parking costs.
(I find it particularly infuriating when on the Park and Ride services, subsidised by Bristol tax payers but largely for the use of non-Bristol residents, accompanied children go free.)
The route reviews need to be looked at again. First are withdrawing the 52 Service from Hengrove to Broadmead (via Highridge), this is because they claim the service is not used. This may be the case during the day but there are always queues on the bus stops during peak times. There is a stop at the top of Dancey Mead in Highridge and at least 5 people use that stop to catch the 7.40am. The next stop on that route is opposite the shops near the Kings Head pub, 8 people regularly use this stop to get to work and because its before 9am they have to pay (Bus Pass Holders cannot use their bus passes before 9am).
I can understand First saying this isn’t a cost effective service but when you run a bus every 20 mins (if its on time) during the day for the elderly, it won’t be. Reduce the day time buses to every hour or every 2 hours but keep a regular service between 7am-9am & 4pm-6pm.
A lot of the residence within the Highridge area will be stranded without this service.
The focus of my comments is on buses into the City Centre. I think the review should examine how buses navigate the city centre and how they interchange. The problem is the city centre comprises three main destinations (The Centre, Broadmead and Temple Meads). These three locations aren’t a straight line between A and B. so if they do stop at all services will be slower negotiating the centre and not great for longer through journeys.
The main problem with longer buses routes (cost aside) is they will only be attractive if they are fast. E.g. I live in Brislington, the no1 service is probably one of the better services in the city, but I have never in my life got it all the way to Cribbs Causeway. It takes well over an hour. I think this is an important point for the bus review. With the introduction of rapid transit for the city, what is the role of the bus service?
One of the questions must be, do all services have to go through the centre, should some stop and turnback? How many people get a bus past the city centre? I think there is probably a need for some services that just go to the City Centre then go round a city centre bus loop calling at Broadmead, The Centre and Temple Meads. Not only would this increase the destinations for users, it would provide an orbital city centre service to help people get around once they are in the centre.
Remaining longer through services could then take a more direct route through the centre to provide faster connections across the centre
I want the review to think about providing proper bus interchanges where the vast majority of city services stop. Having a look at the map of city centre stops they are very spread out. They should be focussed on the three main destinations 1) Centre, 2) St James Place in Broadmead (to provide access to the Bus Station for services that go beyond the city e.g. Thornbury, Nailsea etc) and 3) Temple Meads. I’m sure that lots of people will comment that there is no bus service from St George to Temple Meads.
Three good interchanges would allow quick and easier transfer, especially for people not familiar with bus services. It would also allow people on local services stopping in the centre to change for any of the longer faster through route services that only stop at some city centre destinations.
I’ve though about this quite a lot, so if Cllr Rogers or officers want me to clarify my suggestions or discuss the practical infrastructure required please let me know.
I really believe that journey times on buses could half if instead of looking internally all of the time that we start to look at alternative options extrenally.
For example take the number 6, 7 bus or the 48, 49 in the greater Fishponds area. These buses go from A to B, they are overcrowded and journey times during rush hours are painful and demoralising.
Add point C to the routes. C for Circular, a ring road service. The Bristol Circular service will run from the portway around south Bristol, connect with Keynsham Bypass to a Brislington stop, right along to Longwell Green, then to Kingswood Stop, Soundwell Stop, Emersons Green Stop, round to Downend Stop, then Hambrook, Frenchay (100′s of students get off), Abbeywood (100s of MOD staff), Horfield, BAE systems and Rolls Royce (100s of staff)around the roundabout under the A38 overpass and back along to the portway, stopping at new stops along the way.
All routes within 1 mile of point C – Bristol Circular will take people to a new circular stop. (you’ll strategically identify stops and add more as Bristol expands). Using their new Bristol Connect ticket they’ll connect with the next circular bus and express around Bristol i.e. Filton to Brislington stop, then catch a connecting bus in to their chosen location.
Prices need to be affordable and a three tier system in place i.e. Kingswood to Yate £3 each way, Fishponds to Longwell Green £1.20 each way.
(a 2ltr car would cost about £1.20 return in fuel from Fishponds shops to Emersons Green. This is why people do not use Bristol Buses). They take too long and cost more than trice as much as driving). One can’t go shopping on a bike…
This will avoid traffic congestion, bring balance to journey times, avoid school runs and keep Bristol moving for public transport on the circular. Fantastic car sharing opportunities as well i.e. people meeting in key locations before being taken to Greater Bristol i.e. Thornbury, Yate, Kelston, Clevedon etc.
Ready made service in time for your new luxuary Bristol Flyers to come in to service.
I firmly believe we need to seriously consider a rail or rapid transit(tram) route between the centre and Bristol airport before we review bus routes.
These things can be done in parallel.
I share Jim’s enthusiasm for rail, tram and ultralight rail services in and around Bristol, but current Government funding arrangements don’t present a level playing field.
I met with Norman Baker, Lib Dem shadow transport minister, earlier this week to discuss these and other issues. Two particular anomalies were identified – first the utility companies seem to be able to use street rail projects to renew their own infrastructure, whether it is needed or not and secondly, the government gives a bigger subsidy for buses over rail options.
There is future funding identified for the Portishead line to be opened for passenger traffic, funding for increasing the number of rail lines between Parson Street, Temple Meads and Parkway, and early discussions with Network Rail on a station on the Severn Beach Line at the Portway Park and Ride to give travellers a choice of fast bus or rail links into the Centre.
There are lots of other ideas, such as opening the Henbury loop between Avonmouth and Parkway, new stations in Horfield, Ashley Down and even St Werburghs, but they all cost very large sums of money.